[Stuart Carlton]
Welcome back to Ask Dr. Fish for April 2020, April 20th. We're recording this live and in-person, actually not in-person, over Zoom, over StreamYard that is. My name is Stuart Carlton.

I work with Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant and we are so thrilled today to be joined by not one but two Dr. Fishes. The first Dr. Fish, Dr. Catfish herself, Katie O'Reilly, Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant. How's it going, Katie?

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
It is going great, Stuart. It's a sunny day here in April, so we can't ask for more.

[Stuart Carlton]
There it is. It's cool and crisp out here. It's a beautiful ride in.

Also joining us today from Wisconsin, Titus Seilheimer, Dr. Fish himself.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Good morning. Yes, cool and crisp, but beautiful, sunny, and there are fish that we can talk about today, so it's a great day.

[Stuart Carlton]
It is a great day to talk fish, and also here to talk fish with us today is Megan, the lake lover gun. You know her, you love her. How is it going?

[Megan Gunn]
It's good. It is also cool and crisp here in good old Lafayette, Indiana.

[Stuart Carlton]
Yeah, well, you're literally right next to me, so I figured as I mean, you're right there. Okay, good. I guess we're destroying the illusion here.

That's okay. Yes, we're glad to have the lake lover. You know her, you love her like she loves the lakes.

Anyway, today we got a lot of stuff. Today's show is like Sturgeon. So much Sturgeon.

We're going to start with our recurring segment. This is a new recurring segment that I just learned about called Sturgeon. I've missed a show.

This is what I get for missing a show. Sturgeon News. There is no Sturgeon News theme song at this point, but tune in next month, maybe.

Regardless, like Sturgeon spawning. Titus, so Sturgeon are a spring spawner. Is that the deal?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
That's right. Yeah, so they are, you know, at least here in Wisconsin, they are heading upstream.

It's time to spawn and they, you know, spend time in deeper water most of the year. But then springtime, they're going to move upstream in rivers to some nice, like shallower, rocky areas. And yeah, so you can actually see them.

Our Wisconsin DNR lets us know, you know, what locations we can visit to go see a spawning Sturgeon, which is something that I've done multiple years and it's a lot of fun. So if you get a chance, don't miss it.

[Stuart Carlton]
Excellent.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
I was going to say, Titus, given the weather that you guys have been having up in Wisconsin lately, you might be able to see Sturgeon in your own backyard.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
That's right. Especially if you are close to the Wolf River. It has been just very wet here.

We have, I think, the kind of two of the main locations that people can see Sturgeon and the Wolf are Chiochtin, where the Sturgeon Trail is, Bamboo Bend. And I think those are still under like emergency get out of town orders because the water is so high. So yeah, so potentially you could see Sturgeon out of the river and in other places right now.

[Stuart Carlton]
Interesting.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Possibly in your living room, if you unfortunately have a flood house.

[Stuart Carlton]
Yes. Hopefully not. So how does Sturgeon spawn?

Is it a one male, one female thing? Or, you know, because when I was doing my master's degree, which is now 25 plus years ago, I studied suckers and they get in little trios, right? And do kind of a quiver thing.

At least they do the second year of my master's degree. The first year of my master's degree, they did nothing. So I had a three year master's.

But anyway, so how does Sturgeon spawn?

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Yeah. So Sturgeon are what we call broadcast spawners. So that means that essentially they are letting out, you know, millions of eggs, milt, which is sperm.

And then those, you know, eggs and sperm meet in the water column. And, you know, once an egg becomes fertilized, it will generally kind of, you know, stick to some of those rocky areas where it develops. But the thing with being a broadcast spawner is that, you know, you're really leaving it all up to chance.

And that's why they, you know, send out millions of eggs, because only a really tiny fraction of those will actually, you know, develop into a baby Sturgeon.

[Megan Gunn]
Are things eating these eggs before they get fertilized? Like, are there predators around while they're doing the thing?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah, I mean, I would say before, during, after. I mean, it is like, if you're a Sturgeon egg, you're a delicious little tasty treat for a lot of things. Other fish, invertebrates, like crayfish.

[Stuart Carlton]
Thomas hook.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah, Thomas hook as well. So and then, you know, when they hatch, they are then little delicious bites of tiny larval fish, and then they get bigger. And they're also tasty.

So yeah, it's a, it's lots of, lots of mortality very early on. And then, you know, if they make it into year two, they have a better chance. And then if they're, you know, once they're like four feet long, no one's going to eat them but us.

[Stuart Carlton]
Yeah, at that point. So it's, but it's a strategy, sort of the evolutionary strategy, because when when fish spawn, they do it based on evolution, right, like the way that they do it. But so it's the evolutionary strategy with broadcast spawning that you just you just flood the zone essentially with with numbers.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
100% flood the zone. It's like, you know, I'm gonna, I'm not going to invest the time and energy into parental care, you know, for some animals that only have maybe a few young at a time, but really invest that into making sure that those young survive. This is more just like, I'm going to throw everything at the wall.

And, you know, I'm not going to invest, I'm going to invest in quantity over quality, with the hope that some, some of my genetics will will be successful.

[Megan Gunn]
Some of your spaghetti sticks.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Some of my spaghetti sticks may stick to the wall.

[Stuart Carlton]
Excellent. Are there other, are there other spawning? Because it seems like most fish, you're just spraying a lot of stuff out there, right?

Are there other spawning strategies that fish feature?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are, you know, different degrees of nest building and parental care, like some of these, some of the fish will stick around if you're in the sunfish family, you know, they're kind of building different types of nests, basically. So imagine a circle of rocks.

And then they're gonna, the males will actually kind of keep an eye on those until they hatch, and then maybe hang out a little longer and kind of guard those little, little fish as well. Bowfin will actually, the males will kind of keep this, this big cloud, this bowfin ball of little baby bowfin for for quite a while. And then, you know, so providing a little more help there as well.

[Stuart Carlton]
What about the bowfin ball? So like all the babies sort of ball, like, like a tight school? Is that the deal?

It's super cute.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
It's basically, yeah, essentially just a roving ball of babies that get sort of shepherded around by, by the parent. And so it almost looks like a little cloud of, of bowfin babies. And that's kind of the safety in numbers thing, you know, not only having the, the parent who can provide that protection and having them all in one place, but you know, like other fish traveling in schools or, you know, animals traveling in herds.

It's that safety in numbers.

[Stuart Carlton]
Interesting. And I just remembered the hardhead catfish actually that I used to catch as a boy in the Gulf of Mexico, the males there will actually take the babies into their mouth. And every now and again, you would catch one.

You wouldn't actually catch them on purpose because their sting has like a venom, not a poison.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Venom, yeah. Right.

[Stuart Carlton]
A venom. And, and they're, they're a pain in the butt to deal with, but yeah, they would sometimes, maybe it's the daft top sails. Anyway, the point is sometimes they'd spit out the little babies.

So that was a thing too.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
And, you know, beyond kind of the external fertilization we don't really have it in the great lakes, but some species of fish are what we call live bearers. And so they, you know, technically like they still have eggs inside of them that hatch, but then they give birth to live young. And so they're, you know, again, it's just a different strategy of trying to, I mean, the strategy for all spawning is I want some of my babies to survive.

And so how I go about that is going to be different depending on, like you said, evolution, depending on the environmental conditions that you're living in.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. And I think, I think in general, you know, a lot of fish are going, you know, like you are not, the adults aren't spending a lot of time in the area that they spawn. Like they are going there specifically.

Also another evolutionary advantage, like they're going to shallower water that's productive. It's a, you know, a great place to grow up if you're a larval fish. So, you know, it's, it's not necessarily good habitat for the parents and they can leave, but it is a great, great area of places like coastal wetlands in the great lakes.

If you're a, you know, a baby fish, like great, there's food, there's shelter, there's everything you need. And the parents are just kind of out of there.

[Megan Gunn]
In your professional opinions, which strategy is the best, like yields the most young to longevity?

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
For longevity? Ooh, that is a really good question. And I think it, one of the things that complicates it because as scientists, we can never give you a clear answer, but one of the things that complicates it is what might be a good strategy most years may not be a good strategy.

If you have something like a freak storm or, you know, something that is a disturbance. And so that kind of evens out over time, like evolutionary time, it's like, okay, well, you know, if we have these different strategies that have stuck around, obviously there's pros and cons to, to both of them. I mean, I think in terms of playing the numbers game with the broadcast spawning, you're, you're good there, but you are also just leaving it up to maybe something will survive versus I have my two or three offspring that I'm really gonna, gonna nurture.

So that was not an answer to your question, Megan, but I think it's, it's more that, you know, thinking about what the conditions are like, even if broadcast spawning might be good most years, there might be some years when just through the luck of the draw, you're like, well, that didn't work out.

[Megan Gunn]
I thought it was a fantastic answer. So thank you.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. And I, I just throw in a little bit, you know, and, and it also could be like, maybe it was a really good strategy in the past, but now, especially with, you know, human alteration of a lot of aquatic systems, like it might not be the best strategy anymore. So I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, say bass that are all on their nests and then anglers are coming in and, you know, catching them off their nests.

And even if it's a catch and release, like they're still removing the adults, they're, you know, bring them to the boat, letting them go. And that allows for other species to kind of sneak in there and, you know, feast, feast. Exactly.

So yeah, not ideal.

[Stuart Carlton]
Okay. They go from species to feasties. Hey, you're listening to Ask Dr. Fish, a monthly, now monthly, most months, show in which we talk with our two doctors fish. If you have a fish question, a science question or a life question, send it to AskDrFish at gmail.com or just pop it in the chat. If you're listening live, just put it in right there and we will see it and we will answer it. And maybe the answer will be good.

Who knows? But the thing is we're talking today a lot about sturgeon. And so sturgeon have actually made just a little bit of history.

And if they are returning, this is a WUWM, which is I assume the University of Milwaukee NPR station, home of the School of Freshwater Sciences over there. And they report that conservationists are celebrating the return of sturgeon to the Milwaukee River upstream from Lake Michigan. Titus, tell us about sturgeon in the Milwaukee River.

Is that somewhere they used to be and now they're back or is this a new territory for them?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah, that's definitely, it is a place they used to be. They were for, you know, thousands and thousands of years inhabiting that. But in the last, you know, say 20 years, there has been a real effort in the Milwaukee River system to stock these baby sturgeon into the water and, you know, try to get them to come back and spawn.

And so, you know, if you know about sturgeon spawning, it is, you know, it takes 15 to 20, 25 years depending. Males come back a little earlier. Females, it takes a little longer for their first spawning.

So, you know, now we're into the like 15 to 20 years of restoration. And especially at the Milwaukee River, like a really kind of cool partnership between the River Edge Nature Center, which is kind of upstream in Ozaukee County. They've been raising in a stream side rearing trailer, these little sturgeon.

And actually the picture we're looking at, that is the three-year-old boy releasing that sturgeon that they just found for the first time in Ozaukee County, all the way up at the Thamesville Fishway. So, you know, because it was pit-tagged, they were able to track it back in time. And, you know, there's a picture, like imagine now this, you know, a child with awe in their face, holding a small baby sturgeon and letting it go.

And, you know, now, yeah, 2011 to 2026. And I guess this young man now is almost graduating from high school. And this sturgeon is back in moving upstream in Milwaukee.

So yeah, pretty cool.

[Stuart Carlton]
That's really amazing. So they were able to track this specific sturgeon. Oh yeah, look at this.

This is sturgeon number 985-1200-3164-1132. Yeah, like sturgeon names suck, but they were able to track that specific fish when they released it. I guess because they release them in batches.

I don't know. How do they know? That's my question.

Forget all this. It's amazing that this has happened. What a great success story.

And the baby sturgeon might even be cuter than a three-year-old, which is probably not, but it's a good sweater. But regardless of that, how are they able to track the individual sturgeon that this dude was releasing?

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Yeah. So like Titus mentioned, they use technology called pit tags, which are essentially, if you think about a microchip in your pet, it's similar technology that, you know, you can have information embedded in that tag that, when scanned, can give you an idea or, you know, can bring that information up. So a lot of these sturgeon have been released at an annual event called Sturgeon Fest in Milwaukee, which happens in the fall.

And I remember my brother lives in Milwaukee, and back when he was in college at Marquette, we went to a Sturgeon Fest event. So this was like 2014, 2015. And, you know, you get basically a paper certificate that has the sturgeon you released and the information to track it, or to get notified if they track it in the future.

So yeah, it's super cool. It kind of gives that connection, too, of when people are releasing these sturgeon into the water, it's not just a fish that you're sending off and like, okay, au revoir, you know, good luck. It's, hey, maybe one day my sturgeon will get scanned, and maybe that three-year-old got a message, you know, hey, your sturgeon popped up 20 miles upstream of Lake Michigan, making history.

[Stuart Carlton]
That's pretty, pretty cool. So what is the significance, Titus, of one sturgeon being found? Like, it's cool, right?

But does this necessarily mean that now sturgeon are back there? Or is this a fluke thing? Like, what is the significance of this?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah, I mean, so this is, it's definitely evidence of, you know, the success. Like, they've been removing barriers within the Milwaukee River system. Like, there's been multiple dams that have already been removed, you know, closer to the mouth down in the city of Milwaukee.

And then this is kind of the farthest, like, you know, since those dams were built, this is the farthest a sturgeon has made it upstream, you know, since, so probably in over 100 years. So, you know, they are kind of returning to where they came from. And also because, where's, river edge is up kind of north of Grafton, or it's like Cedar, Cedarburg.

So, like, it's in Ozaukee County. And, and, you know, although you think of Milwaukee, very urban area, you know, very altered rivers down there, but there's, there's actually good spawning habitat the farther you get into the watershed. So, like, it is, you know, the goal has always been to stock these until they can kind of sustain themselves.

And I think, you know, that's what we're seeing. We are seeing the, all this hard work going on for, you know, decades and decades of people spending all this time to raise, you know, starting with these tiny little fish in this trailer, raising them until they're that big, taking them down to Sturgeon Fest, which I've done a couple times, too. You know, you get your fish in a, in a bucket, you let it go.

And then, yeah, like, that's, that's kind of the dream. And I think, like, I have a similar picture of my kids, like, releasing sturgeon up in the Kewanee River, where we have that certificate from there, which has the specific number. And so, you know, it could turn up someday, and that would be really cool.

[Stuart Carlton]
Yeah, but it hasn't yet. That's the thing. This kid's did.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
And I think, you know, the one thing, Stuart, following up on that question, like, yes, this does represent a really important milestone. I did think one thing, one line in the WUWM article that kind of tugged at the heartstrings a bit was that, you know, this was a 15-year-old male going up. And as Titus said, the males tend to return before the females.

So I think the line in the article was like, yeah, he's going up there, you know, with love on his mind, but he may not find any females to reproduce with. So it might be a lonely trip for him, maybe not successful. But hopefully, in a few years, we have some females start joining, you know, just having males come up in a spawning run is obviously not going to necessarily lead to spawning, at least early on here.

[Stuart Carlton]
Oh, yeah. I know about 15 not leading to spawning. Trust me, it's all fine.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. And, you know, the, like, in that article, too, I think they had encountered this fish in 2024 as well, down in Milwaukee. So, like, it is, you know, it has started to, you know, like it was there, and now it's even farther upstream.

But, yeah, it's, you know, I think it's really cool just that the amount of time it takes for a species like sturgeon, because you do need to put in, you know, a lot of effort to kind of get them to come back. And, you know, it is, yeah, connecting people with these individual fish is really cool compared to, like, if you're stocking a lot of fish, the hatchery truck just backs up at a boat launch, and they just, you know, pop them all out, just pipe them into the water, and then drive away. So, you know, this, you got people there, they're, you know, making these connections with these fish.

So, that's great. It's pretty cool.

[Stuart Carlton]
Yeah. Much better than that, although not as cool. Remember that airplane?

We have video. One of the early stocker fish, the airplane that was just spewing, like, trout or something, might have been salmon, into the lake. That was pretty cool, too.

But it doesn't make that same connection. And I think that's really important. And they started doing that at Purdue, like, with the hellbender, which is a state endangered, I think it's still, yeah, state endangered species of salamander.

And those release days. Run by my friend, down the hall, Jason Hooverman. His kid's playing baseball with us this year.

Logan Wolfie Hooverman is playing baseball. Anyway, they release stuff. All right, cool.

But Titus, it's not all good sturgeon news. My understanding is that you are the sturgeon reaper this episode. Is that, is that, is that, is that right?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
I, I, so that is, that is a little, you're giving me a little more credit. I am the finding dead sturgeon on the beach person, which, so a couple weeks ago I was actually on the beach doing a little larval fish sampling part of another project looking for larval whitefish. And so I was there picking through my sample and this couple walked by.

I got to do a little outreach because they were, like, concerned about water levels because they had moved to the area in 2019 when water levels were really high. So all they've experienced is this drop. And I was like, well, I, you know, I've been here since 2013.

I saw it low, then it was high. Now it's, you know, kind of average. So don't worry.

And then they, they came back by and they were like, oh, you got to go see it. There's a sturgeon over there. It's this big.

To which I was like, uh, okay, it's probably a carp or something, but I'll definitely check it out. And so I walked over there and it was a sturgeon. It was about a four and a half foot sturgeon, um, just dead on the beach.

It had been dead for a while. So, uh, it was, you know, definitely a little sad, but, uh, there it was, um, just hanging out.

[Megan Gunn]
Do you know what happened? Like how did you investigate?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. So of course, you know, being a Dr. Fish, I was full of questions and I was like, uh, you know, we should really find out what this is. First I let the, the sturgeon guy at the DNR know that we had found this sturgeon.

Um, and then, uh, you know, just kind of, they were going to send someone up if they had time, cause this is a busy time for fish. It's also a busy time for fish biologists. And, uh, but then fortunately, so, uh, fortunately the, the sucker gods were smiling down on me because, uh, Karen Merchey from Shedd Aquarium was coming through town the next day to, uh, set up our sucker monitoring site.

And, uh, she is a person who tags, uh, suckers. So she had a pit tag reader. And so after, after we set the site up, we went down to the beach, there was a sturgeon.

She, uh, scanned it and, uh, we got a hit. So we, we had a pit tag fish, which is pretty cool.

[Stuart Carlton]
Nice. So from one of these same events, right? Like, uh, it might've been the same kid for all, you know, uh, he's got the high and the low, right?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. So, uh, you know, potentially, so it was, uh, it was actually only tagged in 2022. So they had, uh, it actually probably predated that, that fish that, um, from the 2011, cause it was, uh, it was, it had a fin clip and then they caught it as an adult.

It was like 55 inches when they caught it in 2022. It did not have a pit tag at that point. So then they pit tagged it.

So, uh, but the, the fin clip indicated it was from the Milwaukee, like it had been stocked into Milwaukee at some point.

[Megan Gunn]
So, yeah.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
So, you know, kind of this parallel story and then, you know, like I got excited about it. Uh, and then this, you know, the, oh, live surgeon gets up into Ozaukee County for the first time in a century, uh, kind of scooped us on, uh, how exciting finding a dead fish on the beach is.

[Stuart Carlton]
Yeah. Yeah. More exciting.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
A tale of two sturgeon.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yes.

[Stuart Carlton]
There we go. And that'll be our title. Um, but the, uh, yeah.

So somebody needs to get that kid, whatever kid released this one though, and say, you know, Jimmy, your sturgeon died. Sturgeon's name was postered not back anyway. Um, nevermind.

[Megan Gunn]
So did you, so did you, were there any injuries on it or was it just like old? Well, it can't be old. It could have lived to like a hundred.

Um, and so what, what was your conclusion?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
I mean, it was like in it's the state it was in, like it had been on the beach or it had been dead for a while. So I, I, you know, I kind of rolled it around a bit. I, it actually didn't smell that bad.

So, uh, but I didn't open it up. I was like, uh, Hey, is there like an acoustic tag inside here that I should look for? And they were like, uh, no, it's fine.

And, uh, it just a pit tag. So I, I didn't like cut it open or do anything. And it, it looked, you know, it was hard to tell, uh, no obvious, uh, you know, damage to it that would indicate a injury.

But, uh, you know, I, I see a lot of fish on the beach, uh, here and there, you know, it's not constant, but this is definitely the first time I saw a sturgeon on the beach. So.

[Stuart Carlton]
And so the most important question then, uh, since last year, we didn't have an episode otherwise, well, Carolyn and I would have had a significant disagreement over how much time to spend on this story, but last November was the 25th anniversary of when they blew up that whale in Oregon. Um, so my question is, uh, my question is this, how, how did you dispose of the sturgeon?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Well, Stuart, I blew it up, of course. Uh, so I, I actually just left it there and, uh, we had a big kind of South wind and I, it's either buried or it floated away or someone threw it, uh, in the water. Uh, you know, I would just kind of let nature take its course.

Like, here we go.

[Megan Gunn]
Somebody may eat it.

[Stuart Carlton]
Yeah. So no, now some coyotes got a pit tag.

[Megan Gunn]
Yes.

[Stuart Carlton]
Karen Merche is going to find it. Wonderful. You're listening to Ask Dr. Fish. This is our monthly live stream, uh, where, uh, we are joined by Dr. Catfish Katie O'Reilly and Dr. Fish SG for super good Titus Seilheimer, uh, also joined by Megan, the lake lover gun. If you have fish questions, science questions, or life questions, just send it to askdrfish at gmail.com. And we're talking sturgeon today.

So if you have a sturgeon question, pop that sucker in the chat right now, but we're not just talking surgeon. We're also, we exist in a time, right? We did not just fall out of the sturgeon tree.

Second time I've made a reference about this in the last week, um, saying that I hadn't thought about them over a year, but we didn't just fall out of sturgeon tree. We exist in a context and the context we're in now is spring and springtime means that there's a flooding. Um, there is hot days and then cold days and all of that.

So Titus, you are the King fish watcher. Uh, in addition to being a scavenger of dead sturgeon, um, you are the King fish watcher, uh, especially with regards to suckers. How's your sucker watching going this year?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. So it has been, uh, so I've, I've been doing sucker monitoring here at the same Creek since I think 2018. Um, so lots of years going back to the same place.

And this, this, let's just say, this has been a challenging year for actually seeing things in the Creek because we have had a lot of rain. Uh, the water has been high. It's been fast.

It's also very turbid. Um, so, uh, I would say for me, it has not been ideal. Uh, I saw some kids catch a sucker a few weeks ago, so they were definitely there.

Um, but not really seeing them yet. Um, you know, I suspect they are there, but yeah.

[Stuart Carlton]
Was it a hook and line? How do you catch a sucker?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah, they were, they were hook and line fishing. They weren't fishing for suckers. They were, uh, fishing for steelhead because definitely I've seen a lot of steelhead in there.

Um, they stock them in and there's also some natural reproduction in this Creek. So, uh, I think it was just kind of incidental bycatch, um, for them, um, during..

[Megan Gunn]
It eats mostly macros. How did they get on the line?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. So, well, like, uh, the, the way they fish for steelhead is they have these little, uh, little tiny bags that they put eggs in. So, you know, basically the steelhead aren't really feeding, but they're kind of, uh, just snapping it at the eggs of probably other fish.

So, you know, we've circled back to spawning again. Um, and the steelhead will make these nests called reds, R-E-D-D, um, which are this mound of kind of clean gravel. And then they're just kind of snapping away at stuff, um, as it floats past.

And, uh, you know, so like a sucker that's also in the, in these pools and it's just like, you know, sucking up macros from the bottom, uh, is, oh, Hey, you know, here's a tasty treat. And then they, they might get caught.

[Stuart Carlton]
Macros being macro invertebrates in this case, not like carbs and proteins.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Jimbro, you know, suckers. Work on macros. Yeah.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Very muscular.

[Stuart Carlton]
Very muscular. Katie, you're not as much of a fish Creek stalker, right? Um, but in your research though, uh, have you come across, like, did you tell me about fish and flooding and spring and things like that in your world?

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Yeah. So like Titus said, it's not great for us as humans trying to find fish when it's flooded, but flooding is actually a natural part of the spawning cycle for a lot of different species. Um, you know, some years the flooding can be a little extreme, like what we're seeing this year, but oftentimes it, the flooding serves as a cue for things to get kicked off in spawning.

Like, you know, uh, I know in the Maumee river in Ohio, where there's a big walleye run spawning run, that's one of the big cues that pushes fish or, you know, causes the fish to move in from Lake Erie into the river to spawn is that, you know, big, uh, burst of water. Uh, the other thing, so sometimes flooding is a cue, but flooding can also open up a lot of really important habitat, uh, for spawning. Things like the northern pike are able to access areas that they might not be able to previously.

Um, and like Titus said earlier, and like with the coastal wetlands, that oftentimes opens up these really like food rich or, um, habitat rich areas that are really perfect nursery areas for, for fish species. So flooding can be a good thing if you're, you're a fish looking to spawn. Um, but flooding, you know, can also cause issues, you know, beyond us just watching, uh, sucker on sucker action.

[Stuart Carlton]
It is too bad. Cause normally this time of year, we like to feature Titus's hottest new drops. Um, but I guess we'll have to wait.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
I was going to say Titus might have a drop of a pike. I know you've been watching them a bit too.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. So, you know, another kind of early spring spawner is, is northern pike. Musky is muskellunge as well.

But, uh, so we have another site that I have been at that has, uh, you know, it's actually this kind of draining from these sloughs. Uh, so very forested area has really good water clarity. And I think starting, uh, it's, it's almost, it's a week and a half now that we've been able to see them.

So, uh, you know, pretty cool, pretty cool to see these big fish, uh, and it's at a nature center. So there's a boardwalk there and people have, have been able to follow them. So yeah, always, always a fun time of year.

You got suckers, you got pike, um, you know, there's trout in the river. So, uh, and although the, the water clarity has been bad at, uh, another Creek, the smaller Creek, uh, just north of us that also has a sucker run. I did see my first sucker there of the year.

Um, which, uh, it was actually a couple of miles from the lake and it was, you know, the water clarity wasn't great, but I did kind of scare them up, uh, in this restoration site. So, uh, it was really, you know, cool to see them for the first time this year, uh, up there as well.

[Stuart Carlton]
This is great. Hey, we have breaking news. Um, and that is that, uh, we have a video, uh, that Titus has got of pike.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. So this is actually, it's a video that I, uh, kind of a, it's now a video series, I guess, that are, are great videographer, Bonnie Wilson. And I have been working on, um, facts with Dr. Fish and we've just been like, I had all this underwater video and other video. And so I shared it and that led to kind of these, uh, little short, like YouTube short videos, uh, that can also go on Instagram and other places. And I just, you know, talk about stuff and we show videos. It's a lot of fun.

[Stuart Carlton]
So this, for those of you who weren't able to watch it, we'll have a link in our show notes. Uh, assuming I remember, but so this was a YouTube short. Um, and, uh, so they don't have a lot of cool underwater footage.

Is that something y'all took? And was that in your aquarium or was that, was that you can tell? Um, or was that in-situ as we like to say?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah, that was in-situ. So that was actually the pond that I was talking about earlier with spawning pike. Um, and I have, I have a bunch more video.

I'm like, uh, I find myself out there every year and I'm like, ah, you know, how much video is too much video. And I think when it's fish, there's never too much. So yeah.

[Megan Gunn]
There's never too much data.

[Stuart Carlton]
Unless there is. Excellent. Well, thank you, Titus. That was really cool.

We look forward to your next short. Um, most of our shorts are like, uh, clips of ask Dr. Fish talking about like farts or whatever, which is fine, but it's a little more awkward to report.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. I mean, if that, and if that piques your interest, then the next one was about seishas. And then we have one about, uh, the fish fry and where, where those walleye you were having at fish fry are from.

And then right now we're working on one, probably on, uh, suckers. Like I've been recording a lot of, uh, just me talking at random to my phone out at the Creek. I think I did like five videos this morning.

And then Bonnie, you know, takes it and cuts it all up and makes me sound competent.

[Stuart Carlton]
So it's one of her amazing gifts. You can tell that she is a pro. Excellent.

Excellent. The award-winning Bonnie Willison.

[Megan Gunn]
Titus, you sound like you have an amazing job. Make fish leather and go and watch fish just in the streams and be outside all the time. I love it.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
That's what I do. I mean, I don't get the other work done that I probably should be doing, but it is, you know.

[Stuart Carlton]
As an administrator, I would like to point out you, you probably have reporting due. That's just a generic statement. Just a generic statement. You're listening to ask Dr. Fish. We've got our two doctors fish and Megan, the Lake lover gone here. We're taking your fish questions, your science questions, your life questions. This month is our thematic month.

Megan, uh, now that you are getting us more organized, you've assigned us a topic. What is this month's topic? Lake lover.

[Megan Gunn]
Yes. This month we're talking about endangered and threatened fish and the great lakes. Um, Lake sturgeon is one of them.

We've talked a lot about surgeon today. Um, but I want to know, because I should probably know at this point more about the endangered and threatened fish and the great lakes. I know a lot about the invasive ones.

Um, but can you all tell us what can, what makes an endangered threatened fish? Um, and does that vary by location or jurisdiction and are some of them federally listed versus state or province listed and like, what is, what is all of this all about?

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Yeah, that's a great question. And it is earth month. So, you know, it's perfect time to talk about, you know, species that are having some threats.

So when we talk about a species being endangered or threatened, that's generally like a, a legal term, um, that denotes a species having some kind of legal protection. That is a very vague way of saying, you know, it essentially, we as scientists can say something is threatened or endangered based on what we know about its population, but to be like on an endangered species or threatened list, it has to go through the policy maker side of things. And so, um, like you mentioned, Megan, there's different jurisdictions.

So you can have something that is listed at the federal level, um, whether that's, you know, United States or Canada, but you can also have species that may just be listed as endangered or threatened for particular states or provinces. And that essentially changes how they're protected. Um, you know, there might be protections at the state level, but not across the great lakes basin, for example, if it's not a federally listed species and by getting on, you know, this invasive or not invasive, getting on the endangered species list, I know invasives cause endangered, but, um, getting on that list does oftentimes open up new avenues for, you know, funding or restoration, but it can also sometimes, you know, uh, complicate existing, uh, restoration efforts. Um, for example, the Lake Sturgeon, there was a big push a couple of years ago to get it on the federal endangered species list.

And there was some pushback because, you know, there wouldn't be able to be the, the spearfishing that we've talked about in the past, which is a cultural kind of thing. Um, there was already some stocking in place, so it didn't eventually go on the endangered species list, but it's one of those things that has science as, you know, the basis, but it also takes into account sort of all the human messiness, um, that comes with setting policies.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Yeah. And I, I would, you know, throw in for the sturgeon example, you know, especially like, you know, I've been talking a lot about sturgeon because we have a lot of sturgeon in Wisconsin and, you know, like a federally, like if it was a federally listed species, like, you know, we do have, like Wisconsin has, you know, really made a decision like more than a century ago to, you know, protect and manage, uh, Lake sturgeon. And that's why we have such a big population here.

So like, you know, to have like this really well managed population, but if the whole, you know, it would, it would be kind of complicated, I think for the management here in Wisconsin, because it has been successful, but if it was then a endangered or threatened federal species, like that would really kind of change. I think how, you know, almost like a disincentive for the management that's been done here.

[Stuart Carlton]
But that's something that's really true about the Endangered Species Act, right. It's not a clean victory to get something listed. It makes it much harder to deal with.

And it's like a break glass in case of super emergency thing. And the politics are very different. As an environmental social scientist who studies that stuff, like it changes the conversation around an animal in a lot of ways, or I guess a plant, do plants exist?

But it's, it's not, not always a clean victory, that's for sure. So there are...

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
And one of the interesting things I found in actually getting ready for this episode, I was like, okay, you know, what, what species of fish do we have in the Great Lakes that are endangered or threatened? And, you know, I feel like I should know that as a fisheries biologist.

But I feel like, yeah. But looking it up there of the 168 some odd species that are on the federal endangered and threatened species list, none of them that I could tell were species in the Great Lakes. That's not to say that, I mean, the Great Lakes states all have lots of fish.

Like, for example, Illinois has Lake Sturgeon as an endangered species at the state level. But federally, we don't. And maybe Titus, correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't believe we have any endangered fish. We have other endangered species like the piping clover, several plants that I don't care about because they're plants. But, you know, so there are endangered species in the Great Lakes, just not necessarily fish.

[Megan Gunn]
Why do you think none of the fish are on the list?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
I mean, I would like, I don't have a firm answer. But I think, you know, it is linked to just the size of the lakes and, you know, the, you know, just the population sizes in general are much larger. And it also hasn't, you know, I like thinking about a species like Cisco, like in, you know, the population of Cisco in Lake Michigan, you could probably make the argument that it, you know, and I think it might actually, like, it's potentially a threatened species in some states, but, you know, not in others.

But then, you know, I don't know, it's just kind of a whole different system. And because of the size of the habitat, it would be really hard to manage, I would assume. And even, you know, some of our, you know, we've got these deepwater Ciscos that are, you know, potentially not here anymore.

And, but, you know, then the sort of like, they're actually, you know, some of the deepwater Ciscos, I think, what is it the short, is the short jaw, the one they just rediscovered, basically, like they thought it was the other two that were, you know, supposedly really rare. This was from Amanda at USGS and looking at the genomics, like they actually, you know, the one they thought was extinct was actually the what they were seeing that they were classifying as these other two rare ones. So, you know, it's like a whole mess, like you get into the whole Cisco thing.

And I think we've definitely talked Ciscos and deepwater Ciscos before. It's, you know, so you like, oh, well, do you even know what the species is, that is threatened or endangered? Like with Ciscos, who knows?

Like, we don't really even know that.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Yeah. And short, short nose, sturgeon, or sturgeon, Jesus, short nose Cisco, is it?

[Stuart Carlton]
Short nose?

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
But yeah, getting back to like the titus there.

[Stuart Carlton]
Sorry, they got long jaws, short nose, these Ciscos, ridiculous.

[Megan Gunn]
Silly names.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Yeah. It's just as complicated as their genetics, if not more so.

[Megan Gunn]
Well, thank you. I'm going to bore this information into my brain so that I can talk about threatened and endangered species this summer with the kids.

[Stuart Carlton]
Lock that sucker in there. This is Ask Dr. Fish, our twice monthly, nope, our once monthly live stream. The other thing is twice monthly.

This is our monthly live stream where we ask our doctors fish, fish questions, science questions, life questions. And we like to play a game. We're going to wrap up this time with a game that we're calling the fishy debate.

And so we've got a series of well-constructed thoughtful debate questions that we're going to ask. And we're going to ask our doctors fish to each take a side and we're going to randomly assign them. Now, what we should have done, I realize live listeners, is that we should have lied to you and said that we're randomly assigning them sides and presented them with their side in advance so they could prepare.

But our Dr. Fish, Megan, they're so pro that they don't need that.

[Megan Gunn]
I know. I see it every single time we do this.

[Stuart Carlton]
They'll get it next time, but they don't need it this time. So anyway, we are legit, not movie magic, randomly assigning them a side in the debate. So here we go.

The first one, I'm going to read out the debate question and then Megan, you are going to assign somebody to a fish. Okay. Okay.

First question is this, and we're going to have 45 seconds of debate. We'll go about 20 seconds, 20 seconds, and then I'll pick a winner. Okay.

This is so good. All right. Question number one, which fish would be better at going viral on social media?

And the choices are...

[Megan Gunn]
All right, Titus, you have sea lamprey and Katie, you have lake sturgeon.

[Stuart Carlton]
All right. Let's hear from lake sturgeon first. 30 seconds go.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
I mean, how could lake sturgeon not go viral on social media?

You have this fish that looks like a dinosaur covered in plates of armor. It's got a mouth that can extend outward and vacuum up stuff on the bottom. And it lives for like 150 years.

There's nothing about that that does not scream viral to me.

[Stuart Carlton]
There we go. All right. And I'm letting you know, I'm keeping points whose line is it anyway style.

This is how we have to do this. Does anybody still remember that show?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
. Wait, the games are made up. The points don't matter.

[Stuart Carlton]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I used to watch the one on comedy, the pre-Drew Curry. I'm an old head. All right. Anyway, Titus, tell me about sea lamprey. Why would they be better at going viral on social media?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Oh, I mean, of course, they're going to go viral. They are creepy. They are gross.

They've got this mouth. They're full of teeth. They stuck onto things.

They'll attach to lake sturgeon as well. So just the weirdness of them. They're very slippery.

So you could show videos of them attaching to things, crawling up barriers. Yeah. So they're they're definitely definitely going to go viral just because they're the vampires of the Great Lakes.

[Stuart Carlton]
Oh, that took it. Sorry. The vampires of the Great Lakes like it.

Yeah. All right. That round goes to Titus.

No, he had a cool thing. So they would score. I know it's tight.

[Megan Gunn]
I want to know how they get through the scoots. That's credit.

[Stuart Carlton]
How do they get? How do they get through the scoots?

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Well, they don't attach there. They're just on the scoots. Their eyeballs?

[Stuart Carlton]
Do they do eyeballs?

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
They do. And there are some gaps, you know, in the quote unquote armor of the lake sturgeon that they can get to, especially, you know, when, you know, you get these big sturgeon, there are more just skin areas that aren't as covered with the scoots.

[Megan Gunn]
Yeah.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
I mean, like they're on the back, like right on the dorsal surface of the fish and then on the sides. But there's gaps between. Yeah.

And then they get kind of, you know, a big sturgeon. They're kind of rounded out, not sharp like those little baby ones. Like when you're stocking them, they are pointy.

But then they don't need that. If you're, you know, six feet long, you don't really need scoots to protect you anymore.

[Megan Gunn]
Yeah. Giants don't need protection.

[Stuart Carlton]
Round two.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Exactly. Which is why they would go viral.

I mean, the sturgeon is just going to like.

[Stuart Carlton]
Kitty lost, it's over. You didn't have anything as catchy as the vampire. This is wrong. It was so close. Sturgeon are used to being the runners up, though. It's fine.

Here we go. Round two. The bodyguard.

You are a world famous pop star. And you need a head of security to handle aggressive paparazzi. Boy, do you.

Happens to me all the time. Ask Dr. Fish. Like as soon as I leave this office, they're already trying to beat down the door, literally.

Anyway, which fish do you hire?

[Megan Gunn]
OK, Titus, you've got Lake Sturgeon and Katie, you have Smallmouth Bass.

[Stuart Carlton]
All right. Well, let's go with Titus first this time. 30 seconds go.

We need tics and a horn. We're going to up this game. This will happen.

Anyway, 30 seconds go.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
All right. You need a bodyguard. You need someone with bulk.

And you got a huge Lake Sturgeon, 250 pounds, bigger than anybody who's going to be in that paparazzi. They're trying to take pictures of you. And this sturgeon jumps out of the water and knocks their camera into the water.

So, boom, sturgeon wins.

[Stuart Carlton]
Sturgeon wins. Katie O'Reilly, tell me about Smallmouth Bass.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
So, you know, what the Smallmouth Bass may lack in size compared to the Lake Sturgeon, it makes up for in just pure attitude. You know, these guys are out there defending their nests like, you know, world's number one dad. They are biting toes.

They are scaring, they're running off competition. So I don't think, you know, you could ask for a better bodyguard than someone who spends their entire spring and early summer running the shallows of the lake, essentially. No, there's no question about it, you know.

[Stuart Carlton]
I'm going to be honest.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
And the Lake Sturgeon isn't even, like, it eats things on the bottom, like. What's it going to do?

Smallmouth Bass is eating other fish.

[Stuart Carlton]
I'll be honest, Titus, are you a dad? I'm a dad too. I think the dads take it on this one, which means Titus, ironically, you don't take it.

All right, so that round was five to two. So after two rounds, Megan, it is eight to seven. So this is anybody's game.

Katie O'Reilly is up. And like in games of the past, by the way, we're playing for 30 seconds of soapbox time. So I'm sure you prepared that in advance because I'd forgotten that's something that we used to do.

So we'll see if somebody's trying to throw this around because they aren't ready to... Well, we know which one of you will always yammer on for 30 seconds. Anyway, here's the point.

Round three. You're sick of your current job and you've decided to become a wellness influencer on Insta. Like you want to use hashtags.

You want to have brands. You want to... I don't know what else is on Instagram these days.

[Megan Gunn]
Shorts and reels.

[Stuart Carlton]
Shorts. You want to do the shorts. You want to do the reels. You want your entire life to be thought of how we can get the next bit of content, like Titus on the side of the street.

But you need a public face. Who do you choose to be your bands, brands, your brands, public face and why? Megan, who we got?

[Megan Gunn]
Okay, Titus, you have Round Gobi and Katie, you have Lick Surgeon.

[Stuart Carlton]
Here we go. And we are going to start this time with Katie O'Reilly.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
I mean, if you are talking about living a longer, better life, who better to ask than a surgeon who lived to 150 years old? I mean, end of game there. Talk about skincare routines.

You have a fish that doesn't look a day over 50 years old. And out there thriving, finding love again at 100 years old in the river. So if you need a wellness influencer, the surgeon is your guy slash girl.

[Stuart Carlton]
There we go. The scoreboard argument is pretty solid on that one. All right, but Titus, we're not done. Oh, I've been forgetting to zoom y'all in.

Sorry, you could have been being spotlighted, but you weren't. Titus, bring us home with Round Gobis for your lifestyle brand.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
All right. I mean, so you want someone on your brand that's photogenic, and that's going to be a Gobi. Those bulgy eyes, those ridiculous heads.

And they are, you know, they are having a lot of kids. That's what we want to do these days, because you are influencing having large families. And the Gobi is for you.

They are going to do that. And it's going to be great.

[Stuart Carlton]
Titus, the crown was right there to be seized. However,

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Gobi dogs, you know, they're delicious. And you can eat them.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Full of protein.

Everybody wants protein.

[Stuart Carlton]
You got your macros. You can eat macros like a veritable salmon on the whatever. Steelhead.

Excellent. Well, our winner today by a final score of 14 to 12 is Dr. Catfish herself, Katie O'Reilly. Katie, you get 30 seconds of soapbox time to talk about whatever you want, whether it's skin care, whether it's fish care, whether it is the relative advantages of Notre Dame football compared to Indiana.

Take it away, Dr. Catfish.

[Dr. Catfish (Katie O'Reilly)]
Well, I think in the spirit of the season being April, I will talk about Earth Day and just encourage people, you know, that sometimes when the world feels super crazy, it feels like there's nothing we can do. But, you know, just going out in your community, being able to pick up, you know, some trash on a walk, planting a garden, getting outside and enjoying this beautiful spring weather, I think is the best way to celebrate Earth Day. And just really, you know, appreciating this one planet we have.

We've seen a lot about space in the last, you know, a month or so with the Artemis mission. But, you know, we only have one Earth. And that is really something we have to not take for granted and really value.

So get out there and enjoy the spring.

[Stuart Carlton]
There we go. Get out there and enjoy the spring and we will do the same. And when we do, you know that we'll talk about it on next month's version of Ask Dr. Fish. Ask Dr. Fish is brought to you by the fine people in Illinois, Indiana, Sea Grant, Wisconsin, Sea Grant, and Goby Dog Media. The show is produced and hosted by Stuart Carlton, Megan, The Lake Lover Gun, Dr. Fish, Katie O'Reilly, and Dr. Fish Titus Heilheimer.

[Megan Gunn]
The live broadcast is supported by Carolyn Foley. The podcast version of this show is edited by Sandra Svoboda. The podcast artwork is by Ethan Kocak and you can view his portfolio at EthanKocak.com.

[Stuart Carlton]
How are we going to spell it if we're going to view it, do you think? It is going to be K-O-C-A-K. There we go.

As in you should go see at K-O-C. Hey, if you have questions for our Dr. Fish, just send us an email at AskDrFish at gmail.com, which I think still works. And you can use the social media hashtag, I guess, AskDrFish.

Do we have social? Is that a thing? Anyway, call our hotline 765-496-4474.

That's 765-496-4474. Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for listening.

We'll see you live on Facebook and YouTube at 1030 a.m. Eastern on the first Monday of every stinking month. In between now and then, though, if you have fish questions, science questions, or life questions, AskDrFish. All right.

Lake Sturgeon spawning time. Titus Seilheimer, "'Tis the season for sturgeons to do the things that sturgeons do, which is other sturgeon." What is going on with the...

Oh, sorry. Sorry, teachers. We're targeting kids now.

Lake Sturgeon spawning time. Which also has no theme song because my new job is harder than my old job. But that's okay.

That's not good at all. It should be like... It should be...

Someone's trying to break in? That's what it sounded like. Man, it's the found footage.

Harbor's going to be AskDrFish itself. Anyway, I don't have time for that.

[Dr. Fish (Titus Seilheimer)]
Stuart, it's probably a northern pike out there, too. So watch out.

[Stuart Carlton]
It might be a pike out there. They're coming for me.

I think what it is is... So I've been at a low-key war with the university lately over my ability to store my bike in my office. So I think they're coming for me.

I think that's exactly what it is.

[Megan Gunn]
Sandy, cut this out.

[Stuart Carlton]
Yeah, Sandy... Megan says to cut this out. Anyway, but we're here to play our game.