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Stuart Carlton 0:00
teach me about the Great Lakes. Teach me about the Great Lakes. John, welcome back to teach me about the Great Lakes and exactly twice monthly podcast in which I A Great Lakes novice, as people who are smarter and harder working than I am to teach me all about the Great Lakes. My name is Stuart Carlton and I work at Illinois, Indiana secret and I'm joined today by Carolyn Foley Carolyn, how's it going?

Carolyn Foley 0:21
It's already thank you, Stuart. It's alright.

Stuart Carlton 0:23
I'm sorry to get fired up the weather is I mean, it's still horrible. So mainly the introduction, our podcast is talking about how horrible the weather is. So that hasn't changed. But it's good to know something's not but it's starting to get less horrible. And I'm getting excited about going outside again, I'll vaccinated I'm ready to go and dip my toes into the water before realizing that it is too cold to be in the water and removing my toes from the water and wondering about life choices. So I'm fired up for that season again.

Carolyn Foley 0:49
Yeah, that's basically in the Great Lakes, you know, about the end of August is when the water starts to warm up a little bit. Right. So

Stuart Carlton 0:57
yeah, well, I mean, the first year I was here, so I did my postdoc at Purdue. And I remember taking my daughter on August 1 to the public pool, and the sun went behind the clouds, and it was too cold she had to leave. That that is not the way things were growing up in New Orleans, I guess we'll say we're a little bit different, right. But all this water talk brings me back to our segment for today. The first segment we gotta have segments. It's all segments, segments all the way down. But it's a great lakes factoids, let's go with that. It's a great lakes factoid, a Great Lakes factoid, it's a great factoid about the Great Lakes. Great Lakes factoid it's actually not a super happy one. But it's topical. It certainly is not. No, it's not. And so that is this. I was looking up because today we're going to talk about drownings in the Great Lakes. I was looking up since 2010. So 11 years or so, there have been 962 drownings in the Great Lakes and that includes 15, so far this year. So that is about 95 a year and that's actually basically on par with how many beach drownings there are in South Florida where there's about 100 110 a year. So you know, when you think of a lot more people swimming a lot more in the year in South Florida than you do here in the Great Lakes. And so it's a it's a frightening frightening statistic. But that is today's Great Lakes factoid. And that actually brings us right to what we're going to talk about. So today we have a guest, his name is Dr. Chris Houser. And he recently published a paper with some colleagues on the impacts of COVID-19 on drownings in the Great Lakes. And I found the results to be interesting. So I thought we talked to Chris and so we will play some transitional music and bring on Chris right away.

Our guest today is Dr. Chris Houser. He is the Dean of the Faculty of Science, and a professor in the school environment at the University of Windsor. Chris, thank you so much for coming on. How are you today?

Dr. Chris Hauser 2:56
Thank you very much for having me.

Stuart Carlton 2:57
We sure do appreciate it. So let's let's talk about drownings and COVID-19. So when I saw that you published a paper, my expectation was the drownings would be way down last year because people were vacationing, you know, when COVID started, in particular, your child's safe it was to go outside or if we should at all. But but it looks like you and some colleagues did research and found that the story is more complicated, right. So how did the numbers last year compare to prior years?

Dr. Chris Hauser 3:20
Well, what you had expected in terms of numbers being down because we were self isolating in our homes, was in fact true at the very beginning. So early in the season, the number of drownings was much lower than the historical averages. But then, through the month of June and July, as the states and the provinces began to, to reopen, then you started to see people escaping their homes escaping that self isolation, fatigue, they still couldn't travel very far. And so as a result, they decided that what the local beach is a very great spot, a great spot to go to, to avoid that self isolation. And with large cities like Chicago and Toronto, right on the Great Lakes. That's where you started to see the spikes, that Southern Lake Michigan and the northern part of Lake Ontario, you start to see these spikes just as the reopening start to occur. And then for Lake Huron, which is a bit more of a distance from those cities, then you start to see as people are more mobile through the later part of the summer, and they finally make it up to those destination beaches. That's when they begin to spike that's fertile.

Carolyn Foley 4:29
So is it that people were sort of vacationing and they were just going to their local beach because that is where they could get out. Do you think?

Dr. Chris Hauser 4:37
Yeah, so there's there's two parts to it. And one I should note is that and it's something that that the Great Lakes surf rescue project has really identified for the region is that there's just a lack of education as well as a lack of resources associated with drownings and drowning prevention within the Great Lakes region. Combine that with the staycations and people Going to their local beach and they may not have gone to that beach in past years. But with stores not being open restaurants not being open. You can't get to the CN Tower, you can't do a baseball game. Well, the beach becomes that that opportunity that's close to home. And still within a within your restricted travel area.

Stuart Carlton 5:20
That's interesting. Well, let's talk about the the research you did a little bit and then and then some of the significance or maybe what we could do about it. So how, first of all, how do you get this information? Like how do they know do like, were you like searching police reports or emergency response? Like how, how is this information collected? And how do you get it?

Dr. Chris Hauser 5:35
So we get, there's Daily News reporting whenever there is a drowning, or a major rescue that occurs. But really, that is largely tallied by the Great Lakes surf rescue project, which again, is this amazing organization nonprofit that is trying to boost education on on beach safety across the Great Lakes region. And they keep a very detailed record, which allows us to make sure that we're seeing the same information, we're capturing everything. And then we sort that out through to only identified those that are associated with waves and currents. So true surf related drownings, we don't look at the the boat related drownings or suicides, etc. Just there that looked like it was an emergency. And we focus on the main summer period such as May to September within this particular study.

Carolyn Foley 6:24
So when you say like the Great Lakes surf rescue project, are they looking at like news stories? Are they contacting the Coast Guard, where do they get their their numbers from

Dr. Chris Hauser 6:33
they they really highlight all the news stories that come out from around the Great Lakes region. And in truly try to demonstrate just how much drowning is an issue and in the Great Lakes region. But by doing so they also then keep a very detailed record of what has been going on and those news stories, then if you dive down into them, you can then identify which are surf related, which are boat, etc. And that allows us to a little bit more detailed analysis.

Stuart Carlton 7:02
And if you want to link to the Great Lakes surf rescue project homepage, you can find it in our show notes, which you can visit it teach me about the great lakes.com/ 32 That's the number three, two, because somehow this is episode 32. I have we've been getting better at collecting real data because one potential critique I thought of or saw about your paper is that you know, maybe the numbers are about the same. But we just have better data now do you know as are the data getting better? The reports getting, you know, easier to find? Or what do you think about that?

Dr. Chris Hauser 7:29
One of the problems that we have is that the Great Lakes are surrounded by several states in a province. So now you've got interstate data sharing, you've got inter country data sharing. And neither country I think does a very good job of keeping a record of what is truly a drowning. And you might have an incident on a beach, but is it properly recorded, and many countries around the world have this problem, I think the only country that I found that had the best note was actually Costa Rica. And that's because of the way that their government works. And it's a national body, they actually will have a person who will identified as being a rip current or wave or whatever it might have been. But we don't have that level of data. So it is all dependent upon what comes through in the media what is reported. But I'm confident in what they've been collecting is being fairly consistent over the last 10 years, they do an amazing job of really highlighting the issue. But then what we do is you start looking at it and most of the drowning patterns do relate to our weather and our water temperatures. So when we when we've got that correlation, then we have greater confidence that the data is fairly consistent over that 10 years and what we're seeing is usually patterns associated again with how nice is the weather and how warm is the water. And and then you can look at the deviations from that to identify was COVID a factor in a greater number of drownings.

Stuart Carlton 9:00
And so it appears that COVID was a factor and so part of it is like you were saying that a bunch of people showed up all at once because they didn't have anything to do. Do you feel like that was kind of the main driver in the increase in drownings? Or were there specific kind of weather factors that contributed as well. Overall,

Dr. Chris Hauser 9:15
the number of drownings surf related drownings in 2020. Between May and September, were about 29 above historical averages. But when you then compare it to what could have been weather related, so again, we had really nice weather and we had warm water. So when you bring that into the factor, we were more confident saying that about 20 Extra drownings occurred last year because of COVID. Versus what would have been expected during from weather and from the historical averages. So we do see a big jump. Now again, part of that is that greater number of people going to their local beach, but also it's also because of that education piece if you've got more People who are doing the staycations and don't have experience and don't have knowledge of beach safety. Well, now you're putting you're having a greater at risk population onto that beach. But at the same time we had, in some places, a lack of lifeguard reverses the decision that it was a COVID year beaches are closed, maybe we're not going to hire in this particular year. Or in some cases, lifeguards became the COVID police to more focus on self isolation and group gatherings rather than what was happening in the water. lifeguards are the main reason why in fact, beaches can be our safe, you in fact, very little drought, very few drownings ever occur in the United States, where there is a lifeguard on the beach at that time, you start to take away that resource and start to redirect that resource on top of the education on top of the staycation. And then to add to it all, and it was fairly minor, but it just couldn't have come at a worse time if you've got the highest water levels in decades. And so as a result, you've got narrower beaches, people are spreading out. Plus you've got self isolation where you want to actually spread out social distancing your meme. And so now you're spreading out over a larger area Beach, you're on your staycation, all these factors start to combine. And you just need one bad weather day with a lot of people at the at the water. And you've created a dangerous situation.

Carolyn Foley 11:27
Right. And then, you know, in the Great Lakes. So I know some people think that, you know, the Great Lakes aren't bad. But you know, they're not that dangerous as compared to an ocean, for example, but I know, on the days when there are the huge waves, people want to go out and jump in them, because it seems fun. But it's also really hairy because of the bathymetry. Right in some places.

Dr. Chris Hauser 11:48
That's great. So you've got a combination of the bathymetry. There are some beaches around the Great Lakes, that through the summer, go into that transverse bar and rip type morphology, in which you've got rip channels just sitting there that are waiting to be activated when the waves picked up and begin to break across the bar. But at the same time, you've also got a lot of hardened structures that both in terms of the bedrock but also in terms of manmade objects that groins and jetties that create that natural deflection and force a recurrence in a particular location. And they could be pretty calm in the morning, when you get out there and the water is relatively calm. By later in the afternoon, the waves start to pick up. Now what had been safe is now actually in dangerous. And also if you had gone to the beach yesterday, and it was calm. But today it's waving your wavy, you're actually going to base your assumption on the water based upon yesterday, not on a fresh new interpretation. And again, if you have a lot of people who are going to the beach, and there is one person in that water, regardless of the sign regardless of the flag, regardless of what has been warned by the weather service, if there's somebody in the water and they're not drowning, that gives you that self confidence, hey, if they're not drowning, I won't drown. And in fact, we have a number of studies that demonstrate the confirmation bias that people use when making a decision about beach safety. And in fact, at Pensacola Beach in Florida, we were able to show that if a person's perception of the water did not match that of the lifeguard who has a knowledge of that beach who knows when the rips would form. The lifeguard would put up a yellow flag that the person didn't believe it. And there were other people in the water. They assumed the lifeguard was just being overly cautious. That is the day when you've got the majority of rescues and drownings. And we're able to show that in Pensacola. The majority of those incidents, rescue drowning over a large number of years was actually associated with the day when people and the weather forecast and the lifeguards were all out of sync with each other in the way in which they perceive the water. If you start adding these, these layers on top of each other, you've got you got the bathymetry that's in the right spot, you then got the wave condition, then you've got the people and the lack of education. The whole thing becomes that perfect storm.

Stuart Carlton 14:17
Yeah, that is rough. And I can see how COVID really contributed to just on top of that. I mean, all these factors are there most years right? It's not just a COVID story. COVID seems to have made it worse for all the reasons you talked about with people spreading out, trying to cram it all into one spot, maybe being some less experienced beachgoers perhaps, going but this isn't every year story to some extent, right?

Dr. Chris Hauser 14:39
That's correct. And so I think this year, what made it worse is the fact that we were self isolated that we were forced to stay or in our homes. We are we were forced to wear a mask, you're forced to do something and that in we needed to do that for the pandemic. But now when you get to the beach, and you've sunk the cost into the time and the energy to get to that beach And you've been, you've been, you've been held back, well, that it provides that next psychological piece, which is I'm going to get into that water. And that's where, particularly when you get destination beaches, so people driving from Toronto up to with a good beach, etc. They've driven two hours in Russia in cottage country traffic. They've sunk that cost into going up there.

Stuart Carlton 15:24
The sunk cost fallacy. Yep, exactly. Yeah,

Dr. Chris Hauser 15:26
exactly. And so as a result, they want to get into that water at all cost. And even if the conditions are rough, you're gonna get in. And so you add all these in these layers. And I think just the self isolation and the the restrictions that we had played into that at that moment of freedom.

Carolyn Foley 15:46
So I want to call out two things. Number one, we will also put a link to the publication that paper into our show notes and a couple of the other publications that Dr. House was talking about. The second I gotta say, I think it's a little bit funny that you just said Rush hour traffic and then instantly replaced it with cottage country traffic because they are both frustrating, but like, they are worlds apart, but you can wind up in

Stuart Carlton 16:14
what is what is, I don't know cottage country, I think most of Canada is cottage country. But is that like is that like everybody tried to hit the slopes or whatever on the weekend and you get caught in?

Dr. Chris Hauser 16:24
It's the same kind of concept. So a large part of Toronto and southwestern Ontario has a cottage in northern Ontario, maybe only about an hour and hour and a half away in Huntsville, Parry Sound region on Georgian Bay. And you get there on a Friday night. And it can be just, it can be worse than going into Toronto on a rush hour. Right?

Carolyn Foley 16:45
Yeah, same if you're going like up I 75 into the Upper Peninsula on a weekend. Yeah, same thing, same

Stuart Carlton 16:51
thing. One thing you mentioned was a lack of resources contributed to this. Like what kind of NC you said lifeguards? Are there like resources that you feel like we need more of to help make the Great Lakes safer. And it's really complicated, though, because like you said, there's a handful of states that a whole nother country involved. So that's a challenge. But what kind of resources do you think are most desperately needed?

Dr. Chris Hauser 17:11
It it varies considerably by by county and by district, based upon what resources they put into it. There are many beaches in Ontario that are our destination beaches, that do not have lifeguards, and they have not put that they have not funded lifeguards, they don't actually have a lot of signs or flags to warn people on on those, the situation. At the same time, we have just a broad lack of education within the broader Great Lakes region, which again, that's what the Great Lakes surf rescue project has been doing an amazing job of trying to say, hey, we need to do more to educate the public and particularly kids on beach safety. And so we you have that lack of education, the lack of lifeguard resources, and really no consistent public safety strategy, except for maybe just putting up a sign and saying conditions may be rough. Well, if the conditions are rough right now, I've already ignored that sign. I've already discounted it. And so we there are some resources that are put in but they're discounted resources. And we need to think about how do you actually get in and make that investment. And so one of the studies that we have ongoing right now with a series of economic economists, is actually looking at what is the financial cost of drowning in the Great Lakes region, in terms of what that person individually in terms of salaries and taxes would be contributing to the economy. And it's the the preliminary numbers already looked like just for 2020 alone, it's fairly substantial.

Stuart Carlton 18:49
So even forgetting, like the any moral or ethical obligation, there might be a financial reason to do this. That's exactly

Carolyn Foley 18:55
you mentioned, you know, putting lifeguards in communities and stuff like that, is that are there any particular programs that you can recommend like say even for the Greater Toronto Area or things like that, where people can go and learn a little bit more about like beach safety or particularly around swim or things like that.

Dr. Chris Hauser 19:17
There's there's not a lot of good resources that way. And again, it's done down to the almost to the the municipal level. At that point, here are the beaches with lifeguards, but there's nothing that is all US Ontario. There's nothing province wide that says these beaches have lifeguards, these beaches are ones where we've got these extra resources. And I think that is something that is missing, not only in Ontario, but across the Great Lakes region. How do you direct people to those beaches where we've got the sufficient resources? How do you redirect people from a beach that might be having a Southwest wave and that's generating the rip off the groin or the jetty to a beach that is probably a little bit safer at that moment. We've gotten Nothing like that in terms of a strategy regionally. And it's something I think we should be working towards.

Carolyn Foley 20:06
And one last question, are you concerned? So Ontario is currently in a stay at home order right now, again, right. And the various other Great Lakes states, they're in various stages of reopening, everyone's trying to get vaccinated by July 4. Do you anticipate that there may be issues this year as well, in the same kind of way?

Dr. Chris Hauser 20:29
Which you're actually it's a very interesting question that way, because it's very difficult to control the situation to know what what a vaccination program might have had in terms of things this year, I think we do have that opportunity. United States that far ahead. In terms of the vaccination rate, it's far ahead in releasing some of the restrictions. People are traveling more. And so it'll be interesting to see whether or not we see a shift in terms of the weight that the pattern of drownings that happens on the US side versus the Canadian side, once we we rescale it for just the difference in the population and the way the beaches are historically. But we did see something last year that was quite interesting. So Prince Edward Island is a destination tours placed in Canada in the Maritimes. And typically it's got a couple of drownings every year associated with tourists last year, because they went into complete lockdown, they were in what's called the maritime bubble, and it was only maritimers, who were actually going to their own beaches. And they had zero drownings last year. So that lack of knowledge, don't neglect the better knowledge of the beach safety issue. People grew up around the water, the lack of tourists meant that they had zero drowning. So what we're hoping to look at this year, and it's unfortunate that we didn't have to look at it in this way is that how did the continued lockdown in Ontario? And whenever that lifts, how does that affect the drownings and beach use relative to United States where those restrictions were released earlier. And based on what we're talking about here. And the greater freedom that you have to move around right now, you might actually see a slight decrease from what you'd expect in the United States, because people can travel to wherever they were planning to go. So maybe I should just say I actually don't know. That's where what is one of the things that we want to look at this year,

Stuart Carlton 22:27
and unfortunate natural experiment that you've got set up, I suppose, to see exactly. But what's interesting about this, I'm a social scientist when I'm not moving paper and hosting podcasts. And so one thing we always like to talk about is that you know, information is never sufficient, right or knowledge is never said but this is actually really good instance of where information and knowledge can make a big difference. It's when it's you know, procedural knowledge or kind of safety related knowledge. Like that's really important to get to people and a really important component is to behavior change. And and so hearing you say that is, well disheartening in the sense that there's a lot of work to do but heartening and that there are steps we can take. Now once that knowledge is out there, then then the hard then it really hard work begins I think but but it's good to hear. Well, Chris, this is all really interesting. But that's actually not the reason why we invite you to teach me about the Great Lakes this week. The reason that we invited you on teach me about the Great Lakes is to ask these two questions. And the first one is is if you could choose to have a great donut for breakfast or a great sandwich for lunch, which would you choose?

Dr. Chris Hauser 23:24
It depends upon where I am living. If I was living back in Texas, I'd be at Shipley's donuts Saturday morning. But not actually, yeah, but not actually being there. And being back in Ontario. I would go for the sandwich. I would go for just a great Reuben or a Muffaletta Reuben or

Stuart Carlton 23:47
a second Muffaletta in a year. Actually, the last one was the last muffle it. No, we're talking about diving. I thought maybe there's something about water safety and muffle letters. But no, that's great. I can highly recommend Shipley's as someone who lived in Texas for quite some time and in northern Louisiana, and I can highly recommend Muffaletta. So is there a place when we're in Windsor visiting you or whatever, where we should go to get a good Reuben are Muffaletta or any other kind of sandwich?

Dr. Chris Hauser 24:14
No, I don't think it's necessarily in Windsor winters got some amazing food, a very diverse food culture. But I'm just thinking in general, if I had to get a sandwich in general, I'd get that. Yep.

Stuart Carlton 24:26
And the second question is, so we talked to faculty members a lot but but you're a faculty member, in addition to like a Dean of the Faculty of Science that's a little different for us. What is it that makes you good at that? Like what are some key skills for being a Dean of the Faculty of Science?

Dr. Chris Hauser 24:39
I think the main one is, is that despite the fact that I'm in an administrative position, I'm a faculty member. First, I still maintain an active research program. Part of its associated with beach safety, but a large part of it is actually looking at the impact of large storms, hurricanes, etc. on barrier islands and The exchange of sand amongst the near shore beach and Jim. So I'm a faculty member first and I do the research there and keep that program going. I also still teach and in fact, I do a lot of my teaching before COVID in study abroad. So I've actually done 40 trips with students to Costa Rica into the jungle with with machetes on her hips and deep into jungle environment. And we're doing that both at Windsor and my former institution in Texas. And I love that piece. So there's that sense that you're grounded, you know what that all the faculty are going through. But I think the other part is that I'm a broadly trained geographer or geologist, and I work with everybody from deep rock geologist and geophysicist to oceanographers to economists and psychologists. And having that ability and to talk to those people from very different fields, makes a world of difference in thinking through problems, from very different perspective. And I, we've been part of that has allowed us to really make an impact in terms of recruitment and enrollment, and as well as nearly doubling our research at the University of Windsor in just five years, and it's simply by engaging faculty in a very different way.

Stuart Carlton 26:20
Well, Chris Houser, where can people go to find out more about your research or the work that you do? Are there websites you want us to point to? or social media feeds, what's the best way to go?

Dr. Chris Hauser 26:28
So I maintain an active Twitter feed? How's your Dark Crystal at A, and as well as a uwindsor, Coastal Research Group at the University of Windsor, and be happy to have that shared?

Stuart Carlton 26:41
Yeah, great. So look for links to those in our show notes at teach me about the great lakes.com/ 32 Because again, this episode 32 Well, Dr. Chris Houser, Dean of the Faculty of Science professor at the school environment at the University of Windsor, thank you for coming on, and teaching us all about the Great Lakes. Thank you.

That was interesting to see the work that Chris and his colleagues have done on that, and kind of a really neat, applied row neat, I feel weird getting excited about kind of the research they did and how important it is, but the seriousness of the subject matters. That's just, it's a challenge. But but to see the work that they've done, and how they're able to use, you know, different modeling techniques to try to help drive policy, I think is really good.

Carolyn Foley 27:24
Right? Yeah. And I think, um, you know, I'm consistently struck by the social norms. I mean, I know social scientists, everybody's always like, but I mean, the thought that the lifeguard is telling you, it's not safe to go out. But it was safe yesterday. So you're gonna go in or, you know, you see someone else out there, and they're not drowning, like, humans are so so interesting. But I think it's really important to understand those types of things. So that maybe there can be better messaging or different approaches? Because yeah, I mean, it's no joke, like the, the number of times that I've sort of heard people through my life be like, Oh, it's just the Great Lakes, it's just the Great Lakes, and they are extraordinarily dangerous, particularly, you know, for people who didn't grew up there. But then, you know, in Chicago, people are getting swept off piers. And it's really scary. So I mean, I really do hope that there can be better messaging to help.

Stuart Carlton 28:13
Yeah, I think there's a lot of work to be done there. And we're doing a lot of work, of course, Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant about that. Um, but you know, and as is the sort of rescue project and a lot of other people and a lot of other secret programs, but there's a ton to be done, right. And

Carolyn Foley 28:25
we can drop sorry, we can drop a couple of links for like the South, southwestern Lake Michigan water safety consortium, there's a couple of Great Lakes Water Safety consortiums that we can share.

Stuart Carlton 28:34
Yeah, we'll have all those links in the show notes. And then, but one thing that that shows up with the how susceptible people are to normative power, or normative influence is like, it's very easy to get into, like a blame culture with this stuff. Because you see people doing things that are, you know, kind of dumb, right? But but there's just really striking, without going into too many details that will get me fired or in trouble. Like, I think when you're looking broadly with things related to safety that have happened in the last year, there's a lot of normative pressure. And it's really easy to think, oh, you should just be logical, but people aren't logical. Even scientists aren't logical, outside of the context of their science and sometimes inside the context or science. And so it's just, it's hard. I mean, not to toot our own horn, but it makes the work we don't see grant like it really underscores the importance of it, I think,

Carolyn Foley 29:19
right, and we should say again, just for the, you know, the flip flop follow if you get caught in a rip current. Try to remember that flip flop, follow and just let it let it take you back to shore. Hopefully, it'll be okay.

Stuart Carlton 29:31
Yeah, yeah. In fact, we have a handful of tips. You can go check those out at the episode we did with Mike Dodson of the National Weather Service. That's teach me about the Great Lakes episode 17. So just go check that out if you haven't already. And it's, it's a fun listen, because Mike is a blast. But yeah, she gives a lot of good safety tips and talks about the work that we're doing. All right, you

Carolyn Foley 29:50
have some announcements.

Stuart Carlton 29:51
I have some announcements. I do. The first one teach me about the Great Lakes book club. We are going to be reading and discussing Dan Egan's Death and Life of the group Read lakes this summer. It's kind of a modern classic of the Great Lakes certainly so untold. So if you want to participate in that we're going to take listener calls and comments as part of our discussion. So if you want to participate in that start reading and now I don't know exactly when that's gonna be scheduled for it depends on some stuff at later this summer, probably July or August, somewhere in there. Would that be your guess? Yeah,

Carolyn Foley 30:19
I would guess so. Like I would guess August, September, August, September,

Stuart Carlton 30:22
so by November to December will be depressing. But if you want this Yeah, if you want to interlibrary or if you want to get it through the library or whatever, you know, it's time to start putting in for it now to read about it. Because yeah, we be interested to get comments from listeners on that. And we have our second annual recording from the International Association, Great Lakes research I Agler. Conference. We are lucky to be interviewing their lifetime achievement award winner again, last year. That was a whole lot of fun, and it'll be fun this year. Keep reading the social media feed if that hasn't already happened. We may do it live. We may not there's details. It's all details. But look forward to that. So we love we love our folks that are our friends. I Agler and we love the Viagra conference. So that's good. Teach me about the Great Lakes is brought to you by the fine people Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant, we encourage you to check out the great work we do at I see grants.org And also at i Li and Sea Grant on Facebook, Twitter, and probably some other social media teach me about the Great Lakes is produced by hope charters carefully written you gotta read miles. Ethan shiddhi is our associate producer and our fixer are super fun podcast artwork is by Joel Davenport. And the show is edited by the awesome Queen Rose you should check her out at aspiring robot.com If you have a question or comment about the show, please email it to teach me about three lakes@gmail.com or leave a message on our hotline at 765496 I SG You can also follow us on Twitter at Teach Great Lakes because these are great lakes. Thanks for listening. And of course, she created those lakes